The ministers have asked Germany's domestic intelligence agency to examine whether the Church's legal status as an association could be challenged.
Scientology is not recognised as a religion in Germany.
A Church of Scientology statement said the ministers were "completely out of step with the rest of the world".
The attempted ban is "a blatant attempt at justifying the on-going and never-ending discrimination against the Church of Scientology and its members in Germany," said the Church in a statement.
Critics accuse the organisation of cult-type practices and exploiting followers for financial gain.
But Scientologists reject this and say that they promote a religion based on the understanding of the human spirit.
Cult-type practices
Since January, when the Church of Scientology opened a new centre in the German capital, Berlin, Scientologists have come under intense public scrutiny.
For years, Scientology has been monitored by German intelligence agencies, who claim the movement's structures and methods could pose a threat to the rule of law and "democratic order".
But the Church of Scientology insists that 10 years of surveillance "has uncovered absolutely no wrongdoing".
Under the ministers' new plan, the intelligence services have been asked to draw up a report on Scientology, and ministers will then have to clarify whether there is a legal basis for a ban.
But the BBC's Tristana Moore in Berlin says given the lobbying power of Germany's 6,000 Scientologists, who say they have a right to freedom of religion, it will be difficult to introduce a ban.
Scientology was founded in the United States in the 1950s by science-fiction writer L Ron Hubbard.
In October, a Spanish court ruled that the Church of Scientology of Spain should be re-entered into the country's register of officially recognised religions.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7133867.stm
Normally I am ardently opposed to most types of restrictions on religion and free association and such. Ok, I am always opposed this kind of thing. But if there is one world "religion" to ban, this is the one to ban. I mean, come on, it's a religion started by the guy who wrote Battlefield Earth for Xenu's sake. I guess I am bound by principle to respect the rights of Scientologists just the way I respect the rights of other made up faiths...Wiccans, Mormons, etc. But at least those groups don't function like secret societies that only reveal their true practice to those who have been initiated into the inner circle of...oh wait, never mind.
Added by Pope on 1/25/08 - Article from Time, an insightful read:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/media/time910605.html
8 comments:
I am in agreement here. Normally I fall on the side of religious tolerance and understanding but... oh wait... no I don't. I tend to see most all religions as detrimental to the forward progress of mankind and a safe and happy tomorrow. So that Germany decides to ban a sci-fi cult that I truly believe has maximum IQ threshold of about 72, I am 100% behind them. Besides, who would know better what type of danger cult thinking can create than the Nazi youth... ahem... I mean the current Germany government.
Ugh... I typed a much longer comment but Blogger as usual decided to eat it so shorter it is.
You cannot choose to decide that your opinion of a "made up" religion can be banned while believing that other "non made up" should not be interfered with by government. It does not work that way. Freedom of religion is just that - freedom of religion, not freedom of the religions you choose to acknowledge as agreeable to you. Kind of like freedom to speech - either you have the right to say what you want and so does Joe Schmo you don't agree with or no one does. It cannot be both. Then WE become Nazis.
I am not a supporter of Organized Religions in general. I think they are at the root of most of the world's problems instead of being part of the solution as they should be. However I don't think it should EVER be up to ANY government to determine what anyone can or cannot practice with one fell swoop. If you have problems with individuals who have made their religious beliefs harmful to others - deal with them as individuals. Blanketly banning a religion - ANY RELIGION - is entering a world of frightening proportions and I will never support it no matter how much I dislike the "religion".
Also - if we're going to support banning "cult religions" that practice brain washing and all sorts of other harmful tactics - hit the big hitters first - namely Christians, Muslims and Catholics. They've been doing it longer and better than the Scientologists but I guess since they're not "made up" they must be okay.
Frankly I have never seen irrefutable concrete factual proof that ANY religion is REAL - therefore they are ALL as made up as Scientology.
Just to clarify, Catholics are Christians. And for the record, I have a hard time seeing Scientology as a religion. I am not for banning faiths, and some of my comments were made in jest. But cults that bilk people out of thousands of dollars and refuse to let them leave deserve to be regulated by some authority. I think if you read into the debate in Germany, too, the decision is not to out and out ban Scientology, but to declare that they are not a religion. I am fine with that. I see no reason that cults should get special protection. At the same time, I guess I see no reason why religions get special protections either. Tax them all. Regulate them all. If the choice it religion or the state I think I will choose the state in most cases. Maybe I should start my own faith; or resurrect one. I worship Bacchus, and you know what, he never asks for a dime. Just that I imbibe and enjoy women and the occasional play while I do it. Now that's a religion!
I think in general you are agreeing with the sentiment behind my statement if not exactly Reed's. If you reread what I wrote, I directly say, "I tend to see most all religions as detrimental to the forward progress of mankind and a safe and happy tomorrow." So, the implication that I was choosing one religion over another (for instance by quoting my Nazi joke) is erroneous.
I also disagree with one assertion you are making about Scientology. That being that it is somehow not as foul as the big religions. It is gathering of insane completely overly-litigious nut-jobs who are so insecure about their whacked-out belief system that they attack the purse-strings of any group or individual that speaks out against their bizarre faith and its practices. They attempt in a veiled covert operations to destroy lives of specific people. They want to practice freedom of religion in this country but have no respect for freedom of speech. Scientology as an organization is a film of scum on the cesspool that is religion.
See:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/CourtFiles/
http://factnet.org/Scientology/dianetics_litigation.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_the_legal_system
I am not saying in any way that the other religions are not terrible in their own ways, as a matter of fact , as I have already stated they are generally a negative influence. For instance the priest sexual abuse scandals that plague the catholic church are vile. The radical right-wing in Israel who use the Torah as a means to oppress Palestinians is disgusting. The KKK, radical Islam from Wahhabists to Twelvers, snake-handlers, anti-evolution creationists, all of them crazy screwed-up idiots. But you know who is the more legally savvy group who finds ways to mess up people's lives in such insidious ways that most individuals are powerless to fight effectively? Scientologists. I even had a friend whose mother-in-law was basically financially ruined after being part of their church for 20 years and then leaving. They are a terrible cult and I do applaud Germany for calling them out on that.
Sorry. Never - ever - ever under any circumstances going to agree with you guys on this one. Ever.
I don't care how rediculous a "religion" it is - government regulation of ANY form of "religion" is unacceptable. Period. If that EVER starts to happen on any wide scale - that will be the day that I finally excuse myself from any and all interaction with the world as a whole - because at that point the down hill slide into complete oblivion has begun.
I am not a Scientologist. I am not even "religious" in the sense of organization of any kind. What I do believe in is the freedom to believe what you choose to believe as an individual. I do not think that governments should be able to legislate for or against individual beliefs - whether I agree with them or not.
And - I need not clarification on "Catholics being Christians". I was a religion minor in college - I'm quite clear on what the books say. I'm also quite clear on the general community in present times and the disconnection between Catholicism and other Christian based faiths - which is why I view them as two separate entities.
I also thing the "big" religions have years upon years of disgusting heinous repetitive crimes against humanity all of which make them as big of a beast if not more of a beast than Scientology.
Also - wtf is Germany to call out ANYONE on ANYTHING. Banning other insidious groups does not make up for Hitler - and it never will. Germany - as a whole - can suck it.
First off, I do think that people should have the "right" to believe any dumbass thing they want in a religious sense. They also have to respect people's right to freedom of speech though. Scientologists attack people who say anything against their "church". Most religious organizations welcome an open dialog about themselves, Scientology does not. And I think that freedom of speech should trump freedom of religion, because it is necessary to have freedom of speech to even have freedom of religion.
But mainly as the article and I have alluded to in this case, it is more about the financial exploitation of people on a search for self that is a major crux of the problem here. If I attend a Catholic mass, I can give or not give money (same with a any other temple, church or ashram). On top of that, if I decide to leave at any point, I am under no monetary obligation to the church in any way. That has not been the case for many people who have tried to leave the "church" of Scientology. It operates, according to ex-members, with the exploitation of member's finances as a driving force. You must pay to do this or that, to get this or that Thetan level. And if you leave, the services that were offered free of charge are then billed to you - this is what happened with my friends mother-in-law. I think that any nation has the right to say that it does not want these kind of blatantly dirty tactics and practices to take place within their borders. It is not freedom of religion that is really at issue here, it is a question of what a country can do to protect people in need. I applaud Germany for taking steps to at least look into these allegations from former members and the sketchy practices of this moronic organization.
And to reiterate it's not all about religious freedom, it's about an aggressive cult that "allegedly" uses people to suck them dry of funds and destroy lives of any one if they disagree with them. I think it is a nation's responsibility to protect the citizenry from con-religions. We should be doing more in this country to stem the tide of it here, whether it be from traditional religions or kooky cults. "Freedom of religion" does not give one the right to knowingly exploit any human being.
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